I was contacted a few months ago by a lady who I had met at a friends wedding. We had got chatting about religion and had an interesting discussion about the Bible. I believe God is one single entity and do not believe in the “Trinity” (that God is three people in one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit) – this became a small subject of debate between us.
The lady wrote in to this website with the following:
“Hi Matt, I enjoyed reading your blog and debating these issues with my husband.
However given that what you argue about Christ’s deity is based on selected verses from scripture, what do you think about these verses? To me, they say that Jesus is also God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:1,14).
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am,”(John 8:58). With, “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you,” (Exodus 3:14).
“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Col. 2:9).Also, if he was not also God, why did the devil, when he was tempting him in the wilderness, basically say to him- “i know you have the power to do anything you wanted, to make this rock into bread, to get an army of angels to rescue you, to rule over all the land”. This to me says that the devil knew he was in some way godly in nature.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this. If you accept all scripture as truth how do you account for these verses? Look forward to your thoughts! “
I replied with the following and haven’t had an answer back yet but have posted here to see if other people might be able to answer the challenging questions for Trinitarians at the end. I hope this is useful to you in your studies:
First of all – yes I (as well as you it seems) accept the Bible as the authority on this subject (2 Tim 3:16)- and if we start from that basis it would not be presumptuous of me to say we need to look at the whole of the Bible to establish our understanding of its teaching. So – what I will hope to do in this reply is firstly answer your questions about the verses you have presented but also present you with some verses for consideration.
This subject is of upmost importance for us to get to the bottom of. As we read in John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Therefore a true appreciation of who Jesus is, is a matter of life or death. Only one position can be correct – either Jesus is part God in the Trinity or he is not.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:1,14)
1. If you read this verse carefully you will note that the word was with God from the beginning. Jesus was not the word. He was “the word made flesh” in v14. The greek word for “word” is “logos” and is used in the Bible to express the divine intention or purpose (you can see this by looking at all its instances in a concordance).
2. I’m no Greek expert but I’m reliably told that the word “logos” does not denote a personality – e.g. when it says “all things were made by him” it could equally translated as “through it everything was done” (as the Diaglott does). Even if the word did denote a personality and therefore we could translate it as “him” then we should not rule out personification (e.g. God’s purpose -logos – is “him” not Jesus – like wisdom is described as a person in Proverbs 8:22-23). This is in complete harmony with scripture Psalm 33:6+9 – the word of God created the heavens – see also 2 Peter 3:5-7 where the same greek word is used.
With the above 2 points in mind then I can’t see this proves that Jesus is God or existed before he was born. The word and intentions of God were there from creation. That intention became a reality when Jesus was born.
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am,”(John 8:58). With, “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you,” (Exodus 3:14).
1. Again if we read this carefully we will see that it is a reference to the fact that Jesus was in the Divine plan before Abraham existed. The context of this verse is that the Jews had claimed Abraham was their Father (v39). Jesus responds by saying that that accounts for nothing because in effect he was in the Divine mind before Abraham. See 1 Peter 1:20.
2. The words “I am” are not an allusion to the Divine name as you have hinted at. God did not in fact call himself “I am” in Exodus 3:14. The Hebrew word “I am” in Exodus 3:14 is “EHYEH” which, I am informed, literally translated means “I will be” (see RSV margin). It has a future tense and has been translated wrongly. So Jesus then by saying “I am” could not be quoting Exodus – otherwise he would of said “I will be”. Even if this was a quote (which it isn’t) this would not be proof that Jesus was God.
3. The same Greek phrase is used by Christ in v24 and is used of the blind man of 9:9 – these are clearly not references to Exodus but the same case could be argued as you are arguing here.
So I’m not sure these verses prove that Jesus was in fact God either when examined closely.
“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Col. 2:9).
1. The word “fullness” (greek “pleroma”) is used in Ephesians 3:19 which states “…to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” So we see here that we can be “filled” with God. Therefore to be “full” of the Deity does not mean that one is Deity.
2. This is speaking of Christ reflecting God’s character which he did to the full. Morally he did this in his life (John 1:14 and John 14:9) and he was filled physically with God’s immortality when he was resurrected.
Also, if he was not also God, why did the devil, when he was tempting him in the wilderness, basically say to him- “i know you have the power to do anything you wanted, to make this rock into bread, to get an army of angels to rescue you, to rule over all the land”. This to me says that the devil knew he was in some way godly in nature.
Jesus is tempted in 3 ways in this account (Matthew 4). To turn stone into bread (v3), To test God and commit suicide (v6) and to take the Kingdoms of man (v 9). All of these things Jesus had the power to do as God had just given given him the Holy Spirit (God’s power) – see the previous chapter Matt 3:16+17, the Holy Spirit had led Jesus to this trial (v1) in which Jesus was tested to see how he would use this new power given to him).
The question was not in effect as to IF he could do these things but the MOTIVE behind them. Each temptation had a motive which was against God’s will and so Jesus declined to do them by answering the tempter with scripture each time.
Personally I don’t see this as proof that Jesus was in fact God – He had been given God’s power.
If you are interested in listening to a Podcast by someone’s views on this topic who used to be an evangelical but changed to become a Christadelphian – head over to: http://e2c.podbean.com/2010/06/14/is-jesus-the-god-of-the-old-testament/
The Podcast title is “Is Jesus The God Of The Old Testament?” and I think it’s excellent. I hope you might find it useful.
1. Basic differences between God and Jesus
God cannot be tempted: James 1:13 – but Jesus was tempted: Hebrews 4:15
God cannot die: Psalms 90:2 but Jesus died.
God cannot be seen: John 1:18 but Jesus was seen by hundreds.
2. Jesus is a separate person to God
Jesus is a mediator God is not: 1 Timothy 2:5 – they are clearly two different beings.
Jesus was to ascend to his God: John 20:17 – how could he do this if he was God?
Jesus had an independent will from his Father: Matthew 26:39
Acts 4:24 – the disciples pray to God. verse 27 they mention Jesus who God had annointed. They were not praying to a Trinity.
3. Jesus is not co-equal with the Father
God is the head of Christ so they can’t be equal – 1 Cor 11:3
Jesus says the Father is greater than him – John 14:28
Christ is subject to the Father: 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
How can Jesus and the Father be the same person if they have a different hierarchy?!
4. The Old Testament God
To believe that God is a Trinity would suggest that God deceived the old Testiment Jews by not revealing His “Triune” nature. For example see: Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:5, Isaiah 46:9. God reveals Himself as being one – the only God. If actually God is not one but three He must have only given them a partial truth. Were the Jews told to love a God which they apparently didn’t understand? The Jews still believe that God is one. If understanding Jesus is a matter of Salvation (John 17:3) then why was it not revealed to the Jews? This just doesn’t add up to me. I hope you might be able to explain.
Interestingly the word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible – why is that?
I could go on but this should be enough for the moment. For me the idea of the Trinity doesn’t add up when we consider the whole teaching of the Bible. Jesus was a man, the son of God, who was born with the same problem as us: e.g. he had a nature which was prone to sin. He was the only one who has overcome that nature and therefore destroyed it. Because of that God rose him from the dead and gave him immortality. In His mercy God will resurrect and give immortality to all those who believe the Gospel, have associated themselves with Jesus in baptism and are found acceptable at the judgment seat and they will then live forever in God’s future kingdom upon the earth. This is why it is essential to understand who Jesus is and what he has done for us.
Posted by Matt Davies on Monday, October 11th, 2010
October 19th, 2010 at 4:21 am
Nice article. Some very good points about the false doctrine of the trinity.
Another good verse is John 10:34
October 20th, 2010 at 1:22 am
Very good reply to difficult passages that require much study.
October 25th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
@ Jason – John 10:34 explains the doctrine that Christadelphian’s call “God manifestation”. E.g. Jesus was Gods representative and showed forth God’s character perfectly in a human, mortal, fleshly state. They are two different beings only Jesus embodied God in the way he lived his life. This idea helps to make sense of alot of passages which seem on the surface to contradict the unitarian position – that they are two different beings. Thanks for pointing it out…
@Mike – thanks for your encouraging comment.
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:57 am
Another good verse is Matthew 12:32.
February 17th, 2012 at 2:13 am
But, the Bible says Jesus became MAN. So, of course he wasn’t exactly equal to God whilst alive on earth because he was also fully human!
March 25th, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit(The Trintity)
The Trinity is a correct biblical teaching. The Trinity is real Father, Son(Jesus), Holy Spirit.
March 26th, 2012 at 10:50 am
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your verse – can I ask how that proves these three things are all one and the same being (e.g. God)? Why can’t it mean that we are baptised into the name of the Father recognising Him as the great creator, HIs son – recognising Jesus as our representative and the captain of our salvation, and the Holy Spirit – recognising God’s power in calling us to the hope of His gospel (The things concerning Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God). This understanding is in harmony with all the scriptures
Can I ask you if it makes sence that the “Father” did not produce His “son” as Trinitarians believe – that the “son” pre-existed with his “Father” before he was born?! Are you happy with most churches explanations that this is a “great mystery” which cannot be understood?
April 9th, 2012 at 6:38 am
how do u explain genesis chapter 1 verse 26 ? And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
regarding the trinity how do u explain that? would appreciate a reply I seek truth with an open and biblical mind and really look into things as to not gt led astray thank you
April 26th, 2012 at 3:27 am
I’m still waiting for a reply
April 26th, 2012 at 9:06 am
Hi Andrew,
Apologies for the late reply. My wife and I have just been blessed with our first child. I had emailed you on the 10th with a response but it can’t have got through – please see below:
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Your question was: How do you explain genesis chapter 1 verse 26 regarding the Trinity. Good question as this verse does indicate a plurality within a unity because of the language it uses. However it does not prove the Trinity for the following reasons:
1. There is no mention of 3 beings in this passage. Yes, there is a plurality but how can we say it is limited to 3? In this sense it does not prove the Trinity. Incidentally I believe there is one God who manifests his character and power in different ways in other beings (for example in Exodus 3 an Angel appears to Moses in the bush but speaks as God) and it is His purpose to manifest Himself in all those who are accepted at the judgment seat when Jesus returns by giving them eternal life in His Kingdom (see 1 Peter 1:4. John 17:21 – I also have a new Podcast coming our about this in more detail soon God Willing so please keep an eye out on the gospel truth website)
2. The trinitarian argument is inferred – we have to read into the text that the “us” and “our” refer to either Jesus or a personal Holy Spirit.
3. The Jews have always believed in ONE God and have never understood the above passage to mean there is a Triune God – it is only after Christ that this doctrine has developed and this passage has been used to attempt to prove the Trinity.
4. This passage refers to God’s creative work that he performed through the angels. Consider these points:
• Men bear the physical image of angels (Gen 18:2-22). We were therefore created in their image.
• Divine activity is conducted by the angels (e.g. God appeared in the burning bush but it was an angel representing Him read Exodus 3:2-8 with Acts 7:35, see also Gen 32:30 – Jacob wrestles with God but Hosea 12:3-4 tells us this was an angel). Therefore it is not hard to see this verse in relation to this.
5. The word for “God” in the Hebrew is “Elohiym” and means “mighty one” and you can see how this can apply to angels by looking at Psalm 103:20. It is an “elastic” word being used for many different things. For example it is translated “goddess” in 1 Kings 11:33, “judges” Exodus 21:6 and is applied to pagan idols in Judges 16:23. Therefore we cannot simply constrain it to “God” Himself. The context of the passage and the rest of scripture needs to be considered.
6. Even though the usual word for angels is “malak” (which means “messenger”), in Psalm 8:5 the hebrew “Elohiym” is translated “angels”. This is because the writer to the Hebrews quotes this passage in Heb 2:7 and translates the word “eloyim” into the greek “aggelous” (angels) and so it can be inferred that the intended meaning of elohiym in Psalm 8:5 is indeed angels. This being the case, it’s not therefore out of the question to consider the context of other passages which mention elohiym and look at them in a similar way – e.g. like our passage Gen 1:26 – as referring to angels.
So I hope that answers your question. I have attempted to answer it in consistency with the whole of scripture as for me I see no evidence of God being three beings in the Bible. This verse certainly doesn’t prove the Trinity.